Saturday, February 08, 2020

Back talking to the professional lay Catholics...

Something is happening in Trad land. That's not a deep thought since something is always happening where there is life but I mean that something new seems to be stirring. People are talking back to the leaders of Trad Inc. and asking questions. Benedict Carter  has come out with his suspicion that the people we've been told represent and are the leaders of traditional Catholics are really controlled opposition who do it for the money, honey.

I don't trust professional lay Catholics in general. I think I've made that clear over the years. I've just  observed too many guys who twist every which way in order to keep the mortgage paid. I've long felt that if you truly do what you do for the love of Christ then do it without pay. I don't have a problem with taking donations to keep the server working and to keep the day to day mechanics of your site in order but I do dislike and distrust the people who are making their whole living off the Faith and claiming that they are more holy than the rest of us and that they are making a sacrifice. Really? How about you get a real job and support your family AND run your site with a discreet donation button that way?

Constant, strident hustling for money for your lay "apostolate" leaves me cold. There is one site that I will not name that sends me e-mails every week asking for money. Another site owner makes long podcasts and essays talking about how hard it all is, how exhausting and how much he could be making if he hadn't taken on this holy cause so hit the donate link. A few years ago, a Catholic writer had or allowed his wife to post on his site with a nagging, pleading missive. She wrote about how hard it was to see her child standing in front of the refrigerator and not being able to afford to have the food that the child wanted. That pissed me off. I clicked away from that site and never read anything from that individual again.

I grew up in a working class household. When my father died, my mother worked two jobs. I never went without food. I always had books, shoes and a Winter coat that fit. I stayed in Catholic school until 12th grade. My mother didn't even ask relatives for help. She just got on with it. So, forgive me if I am aghast at college credentialed individual who has obvious talent and cleverness who wants me to donate to his cause so his kids can eat. Sir, go get yourself a job, handle the responsibility that God gave you and then come back to me. Finally there is one lay professional Catholic who writes on and on and on some more about stupid and worldy (you and me) people but wants us to send our worldly cash to him/her. I say again, you are by your claim, more righteous than me. You are by your claim, more holy than me. You are, by your claim, more educated and sophisticated than me so why exalted sir or madam do you not seek employment and support your rent and food that way and run your site? 

It will be interesting to see how many people start asking the professional Catholics rude questions about how they spend their money and how long they'll keep it up  but I'm amazed  and delighted that anybody has brought it up in public at all. 


Anita Moore said...

There is something diabolical in this in-fighting amongst Catholics. I don’t think it is very healthy to immerse ourselves too deeply into these disputes amongst factions. Nor is it healthy for us to dwell too much on the question whether Pope Francis is the legitimate Pope. (I think he is, since he was universally acclaimed by the whole Church as Pope at the time of his election; otherwise, we must take the position that the entire Church can err by wrongly acclaiming a false Pope.) If Pope Francis is to be anathematized, it cannot be by us in the pews, since we lack the authority. We would like to think we can somehow fix this ourselves, but we can’t. We cannot do anything about this crisis other than pray and do penance.

The way I see it, our job is to become holy ourselves by the Sacraments, prayer, penance and fulfilling the duties of our state of life. We are in this mess in no small part because not enough of us have been doing that.

LaJeca said...

"Universal acclaim" isn't a thing. Hasn't there always been infighting, à la Peter v. Paul? God gave each of us a brain and he expects us to use it. Stay confessed, lean on the sacraments and ask for the grace to hear the voice of the true shepherd. That's one prayer I'm betting Our Lord will answer with alacrity.
Great post, Dymphna, thank you.

Debbie said...

The dubia has gone unanswered for 1200+ days. If the bishops and cardinals won't do anything about an aspostate heretical "Pope" then I suspect God will raise up a Saint, be he a priest or even a lowly lay woman to shake things up.

Catherine Sarto said...

Well done. I agree wholeheartedly. I suppose having a smart woman point out this inconvenient truth will anger them all the more. Somehow, I think you can handle any backlash you receive. God bless you and Our Lady keep you.

Unknown said...

anita … whoever speaks the truth will rise to the top.... despite 'infighting'

DJR said...

"I think he is, since he was universally acclaimed by the whole Church as Pope at the time of his election..."

I have seen this assertion about "universal acclamation" numerous times, but I don't understand why people adhere to it.

Pope Formosus was universally acclaimed also, but he was declared to be an antipope by at least two subsequent popes, and the Church has never definitively clarified whether Formosus was a true pope.

In the reigns of Popes Stephen VI and Sergius III, Catholics could not have made the "universal acclamation" argument with regard to Formosus. Both Stephen and Sergius ruled the opposite to that claim.

That's not to say that I think Pope Francis is not the pope; I just don't believe universal acclamation is a good argument to demonstrate the fact. History proves this in no uncertain terms.

Squiggyberkley said...

Anita Moore- well said!!!! Infighting among Catholics occurs more and more frequently due to the fact that among 65 million or so that call themselves Catholic in the US, many are abortionists and are the "Natalini, Cenerini, and Pascalini" Catholics- Christmas, ashes, and Easter types. VP Pence was Catholic and apostacized. The pedophile crisis has hit the US churches rather hard because (as I wrote in a previous post) no diocese can guarantee that Peter's Pence, Catholic Charities, and the numerous "stewardship appeals" will not fund overly oppulent lifestyles of clergy and episcopacy; nor be used to pay off the many pedophile lawsuits. If the Catholic Church in the US does not watch itself, it can go the way of France and other countries in Europe where their church buildings are owned by the state. This is why Notre Dame- (for example) is taking so much time to rebuild. The Archdiocese of Paris has no say; there is a movement (albeit small) wanting to make it an "interfaith church" so what Islam has not done in war, it will do by shere numbers in the world........ We may speak truth but be not in error to what the facts are lest we give voice to a lie.

Squiggyberkley said...

When people aske me for cash for a cause, I tell them "I am in the collection business and as a senior citizen have become my own charity, but I will pray for you." Emails? Unsubscribe and make your sites and or emails secure.

Irenaeus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sal said...

I'm with you on this. The situation always feels a bit off to me.

Barbara Jensen said...

What is obvious for all to see, and blatantly clear to those who have been taught Catholic doctrine, is that Bergoglio is trashing the Church. Yes, we have had bad popes before who have clung to a particular error, but we have never had a 'pope' systematically destroy the teachings the Church as Bergoglio is doing. He is circling around the meaning of the Holy Eucharist, paving the way for non belief in Who this precious Gift really is. Any fool can see it if they are willing to open their eyes. Bergoglio is is alliance with the one world government. He is preparing the Catholic Church to be the co-opted by new world church. It is an error to ally with a 'pope' who denies the full Catholic doctrine and to follow him into error. Our obedience must be to the fullness of the Faith.

Anita Moore said...

Universal acclaim, or if you prefer, universal acceptance, is a thing. Think about it: if the Pope is the touchstone of Christian unity, and being a Catholic depends on being in communion with the Pope, then how can Christ allow the entire Church to err concerning who is the true Pope? There are guarantees of infallibility that apply to the Church as a whole, and to the bishops in unanimity, not only to the Pope.

(And if you don’t like 1Peter5, then look at the sources this author references.),+and,+consequently,+whether+he+has+the+power+to+rule+the+Church+or+not.+The+answer+is+simple.+If+the+whole+Church+once&source=bl&ots=_GrI0J4aE-&sig=ACfU3U1lHj6C2xV8T3-lQkYzirubXf7WLw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5xon3u5_lAhUMLK0KHb0rCfYQ6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Wilmers%20%20The%20difficulty%20is%20sometimes%20raised%20that%20it%20is%20impossible%20at%20times%20to%20know%20whether%20a%20pope%20is%20lawfully%20elected%20or%20not%2C%20and%2C%20consequently%2C%20whether%20he%20has%20the%20power%20to%20rule%20the%20Church%20or%20not.%20The%20answer%20is%20simple.%20If%20the%20whole%20Church%20once&f=false

Squiggyberkley said...

For further info on infallability: Father Patrcik Gransfield's "The Limits of the Papacy"- not all is absolute power in the Church or the Vatican.

Stabat Mater said...

Yes! There are numerous "lay theologians" in my area. One in particular has benefactors who help him afford a very nice vehicle and provide other financial help. Taking his good sweet time paying back student loans since "the government" pays all the interest. He believes he is entitled to donations from white people, esp, since he is owed reparations as an Hispanic who has lived here all his life. He was in seminary when he met his wife and left, but still pursued a degree in theology. He now teaches at a seminary, complains about not making a just wage and if he has to work on a Sunday, and looks down his nose at any husband who is a blue collar shift-worker. And he is not the only Catholic academic elite, just the most annoying. And he proclaims that marriage is absolutely equivalent to holy orders. Seriously?!? Why hasn't anyone told these men their "call" is not to have a job they really enjoy that suits their interests but an obligation to sacrifice and provide for their families?

Squiggyberkley said...

To "Stabat Mater"- this person gets away with what he does because the seminary rector (or superior if religious) and the local bishop tolerate him and his views- if tenured, it is most difficult to get rid of him unless he does what Fr. Matthew Curran did at Catholic University by preaching against Humanae Vita.....the Jesuits later accpeted him at Fordham Univ.

dxv515 said...

The latest Rad Trad to demand money is the over-rated hero Alexander Tschugguel who set up a website asking you for donations in order to get his newsletter. He set up the website just hours after he exploded on the Rad Trad scene.

I agree why give money to blogging laymen to tell us about the faith.

Since when did the Apostles charge others to hear the faith preached to them?

This includes Voris and his money making machine.

Dad29 said...

It's always fun (that's sarcasm) to read about their vacations, cruises, trips to Rome, NYC, (etc.) and how to Eat. Very. Well.

Good for them. Clearly, they're not in need of more money!

TheFlyingTigers said...

No more to fund media apostolate, pacha-dunkers, podcasting Aquinas-experts...etc.

Cash to pay for our parish physical plant needs, like HVAC compressor Bill's, and paid DIRECTLY to the plumbers, electricians...etc. Let Bishop Butterpants try and get the money back then.

Mary Kay said...

Do you know anything about Benedict Carter? Why does this bother him so much? If you don't know him, perhaps it is wise to wait a bit and see. The Trad world isn't going anywhere. If a few people make some money in the process, that is between them and God. But there are many people who benefit from the meetings with other Trad Catholics, and have their faith bolstered. And they just might become the seedbed of the next saint or future pope. Can you point me and others to another venture where our presence in numbers might actually scare some sense into those cardinals? In my lifetime, it is the best I have seen of a show of force in response to the them. And I sincerely hope to see others do so, including Mr. Carter!

DJR said...

Blogger Anita Moore said..."Universal acclaim, or if you prefer, universal acceptance, is a thing. Think about it: if the Pope is the touchstone of Christian unity, and being a Catholic depends on being in communion with the Pope, then how can Christ allow the entire Church to err concerning who is the true Pope?"

The above statements do not take into consideration the actual history of the Church.

At the time of the Western Schism, there were hundreds of thousands of Catholics who erred as to who the true pope was, at least one of whom, Saint Vincent Ferrer, is a canonized saint.

Were those people Catholic?

Further, several claimants to the papacy that occurred after the Council of Pisa were included in the Annuario Pontificio as popes as late as the last century, which means some of the men we now call antipopes were listed as true popes for hundreds of years.

If you look at the list of popes located at the Catholic Encyclopedia, you will see Alexander V listed as an antipope, but if you click on the link located there, it takes you to his bio, and you will see the following: "On 26 June, 1409, he was the unanimous choice of the cardinals to fill the presumably vacant Papal Chair."

The article under his bio states: "Alexander V soon found all nations in sympathy with him, save Spain and Scotland and some Italian cities..."

Further: "He was destined, however, to rule but ten months. His pontificate was marked by unsuccessful efforts to reach Rome, then in control of King Ladislas of Naples, whom Alexander deprived of his kingdom in favour of Louis II of Anjou."

Thus, we have the Catholic Encyclopedia using terms as "rule" and "his pontificate."

And yet further: "Whether or not Alexander was a true pope is a question which canonists and historians of the Schism still discuss. The Church has not pronounced a definite opinion nor is it at all likely that she will. The Roman 'Gerarchia Cattolica,' not an authoritative work, which prior to 1906 contained a chronological list of the popes, designated Alexander V as the 211th pope, succeeding Gregory XII, resigned."

So, Alexander V didn't have universal acceptance, but neither did Pope Gregory XII or Benedict XIII. Yet, one of them had to be pope.

Alexander VI took the number VI because he recognized Alexander V as a true pope; otherwise, it would be erroneous for him to have taken the number VI because there were no other Alexanders between the purported pope Alexander V and Alexander VI.

Christ has permitted quite a few anomalies in the history of the Church, one of which is that He permitted entire Catholic kingdoms to recognize someone as pope who was in fact not the pope.

One can be Catholic and be in error as to whether any particular ostensible occupant of the See of Peter is actually a true pope.

In addition, Pope Formosus had universal acceptance. Pope Stephen VI and Pope Sergius III later declared him to be an antipope.

So "universal acceptance" is just not the "thing" that some are making it out to be. There are at least two popes who have so ruled.

I believe Pope Francis is the pope, but the "universal acceptance" opinion does not provide any help in the matter of his legitimacy. In reading the articles at 1P5, all they do is quote the opinions of theologians, and none of those opinions are binding on Catholics. The history of the Church and the papacy pokes holes in those opinions.

All that being said, I agree there's not much we can do about it except fast and pray.

Debbie said...

Once again she shreds the Universal Acceptance nonesense. Once this storm is over there's going to be lots and lots of embarrassed Catholics. Pray for the humility to be able to say, you were right Ann.

Anita Moore said...

Once this storm is over there's going to be lots and lots of embarrassed Catholics.

Why would you even want this?

Debbie said...

Where did I at all imply I wanted it?

Emil Berbakov said...

Yes! Agree 1000%! I've been saying this for years. Thank you!

R J said...

The professional lay Catholics in their current manifestations (presumably Mrs. Dymphna doesn't intend to condemn Belloc, Chesterton, and suchlike serious lay writers) are all part of the maniacal Protestantization which has made American Catholicism an international joke.

Time was when theology was left mainly to those with comprehensive academic training, such as Fulton Sheen; time was when Church history was left mainly to those who knew how to do serious research and construct arguments, like the late Michael Davies.

But now, any 63-year-old bubba living in his mother's Wyoming attic can set up a blog and pretend to be an authority on the Magisterium, demanding, moreover, that we subsidize him for his trouble: since fundamentally, for him, it's all about Private Judgment and the Feelz.

Aqua said...
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Aqua said...

RJ: I’m not seeing any Fulton Sheens, Michael Davies, Bellocs or Chestertons. I am seeing antipope, James Martins, Marxes and Tagles and a vast array of effeminates. The Hierarchy and educated class are giving us Baals, corrupted morals and profane Liturgy. And so, “bubbas” like me struggle to spiritually survive, along with their little bubba boys and girls ... who are, lowly as we are, precious in God’s sight.

No matter what our level of learning and authority, we all are responsible to follow Christ in the Narrow Path to Heaven. We are responsible to live according to Sacred Scripture and Tradition, in submission to the Magisterium of the Church (entire, collected, living and dead, in unity one with another in Christ) .... And *NOT* the deviant “Francis Magisterium” in isolation from all else, btw. The Magisterium is recognizable by any and all in any age to the end of time. It is not, ever, new and improved and sourced to one man (Francis).

I don’t need to be an “authority” on the Magisterium to know I am not allowed to worship Baals, that the Catholic Faith is the one true Faith while all others are false, that Sacred Liturgy is of Divine origin and cannot be abrogated by the will of mere men nor that a Sacred Liturgy can be rendered profane, and that sin is not allowed in communion with God.

It is a blessing to be supported by such strong men in the Faith as you name. But, absent men like that, in the presence of men who are their polar opposite, we are not orphans - still left with Sacred Scripture and Tradition which does not belong only to the Hierarchy and the educated.

And so, we do the best we can. We will be responsible for he gifts which we have been given.

Squiggyberkley said...

And we need good education on the faith with some Great Catholic resources:
1)By Patrick Madrid: a) "Where is that in the Bible?" b) "Why is that in
Tradition?" c) "Answer me this?" and d) A Pocket Guide to Catholic Apologetics.
2) The New American Bible rsv Catholic addition with notes or Douay Rheims Bible .
3) For daily morning and evening prayer, readings, and meditation the monthly pocket sized booklet Magnificat is great (see
4) The Paulist Biblical Commentary: (2018 by Paulist Press)Edited by José Enrique Aguilar Chiu, Richard J. Clifford, SJ, Carol J. Dempsey, OP, Eileen M. Schuller, OSU, Thomas D. Stegman, SJ, Ronald D. Witherup, PSS
5) How not to read the Bible- Scott Lewis S.J.
6) Benedictus: Day by Day with Pope Benedict 365 daily meditations.
7) How Not to Say Mass-3rd Edition Guidebook on Litugical Principles & Roman Missal;Dennis C. Smolarski, SJ Paulist Press
6) Catechism of the Catholic Church

R J said...

Unfortunately for "Aqua", I obtained - and have kept for my records - a copy of his comment from 11:56AM which was removed by the author.

The removal was justified, because the comment consists of defamatory lies against me, about whom he knows nothing; it mendaciously attributes to me positions that I have never held; and it is clearly written through absolute ignorance of the fact that to other English-speaking countries (one of which is my home), America's First Amendment does not apply.

In those countries, laws against libel are extremely strict, and it is almost impossible to lose a libel case.

There is nothing to stop Mrs. Dymphna's website - or any other website - from being blocked by governments of those countries, when such sites contain explicitly defamatory content.

Let this comment serve (in the fullness of charitable censure) as a solemn warning: because be assured, there will be no second warning.

Squiggyberkley said...

"RJ" you would, however have to pursue this in an international tribunal which would be costly. And, keep in mind that gossip, rumor, and hearsay though inadmissable in most courts, cannot be erased from the minds of a jury that could be told to "disregard". Google and Youtube block many things in the US which do not agree with their political agenda- so censorship is alive and well in the US and reputations can be destroyed unfortunately by a whim. All this because many feel that all opinions are valid even though in error to what the facts are.

Aqua said...

RJ: I highly recommend re-training your focus upon Christ and the Blessed Mother. Consider the calumnies heaped upon His holy head before you get to upset about perceived wrongs against your person.

I get angry about one thing only, (or try to keep that focus - aim for it with exceptions I try to correct), and that is sin and detraction against the glory of God and the honor that is due to Him alone. That is what they refer to as “righteous anger”. Sins against me, as Catholics - sins against our person - should simply be offered up in union with the sufferings of Christ.

The reason I took the post in question down was that upon re-reading it I noticed the same lack of justice you refer and so I decided to re-direct toward the topic itself, and remove the personal focus which (as you say) was not reasonable or appropriate. The general theme was better captured by #2.

Anger and defense of one’s person is a black hole that can never be filled. I highly recommend not feeding that beast. Peace, in Christ!

Mary Ann Kreitzer said...

Wow! You hit a chord, Dymphna! I completely agree. And what really gets me are all the marketing techniques that come with begging letters in the mail. If an apostolate can afford to send me unsolicited stuff to make me feel obligated to send a donation, I keep the mailing labels, cards, calendars, angel coins, rosaries, etc., etc. and throw their response envelopes in the recycle bin.

I've been publishing the Les Femmes newsletter for 25 years. I don't ask for money. I depend on my publisher, Our Lady, to provide enough to keep going if she wants it. I almost never take anyone off the mailing list. All the priests in the diocese get it gratis. Of course, I'm not the breadwinner of our family, but I never wanted to make any money off fighting for the faith or fighting for the unborn. Having said that, I do suspect that the Lord calls some into full-time service for the Church. But if he does, I suspect he provides without continuous requests for money.

Unknown said...
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