Sunday, March 27, 2011

It's seder time again

Every Lent some dear, nice Catholic announces that they're going to either a Christian seder at the parish hall or visiting Jewish friends and seeing a real seder so they can get closer to Jesus. Something about this always seemed a bit off to me  but like most Catholics my age I wasn't taught enough about traditional Church teaching and could never articulate why Christianized seders just didn't seem right. If you've ever been in that spot,  this talk by a priest posted at the very fine site, Audio Sancto. can help.

10 comments:

scotju said...

This priest is right, we Catholics have no bsiness celebrating a Jewish feast. Jews reject the incarnation, so they are anti-christ. (IIJno.7) Since they reject the incarnation, their Passover is meaningless.

Lynne said...

I love Father Wolfe...

Kat said...

Ermmm... Jews aren't anti-christ, to be anti-christ you have to have malevolence towards him, most Jews I know, including the one I am engaged to, don't dislike Christ, they just don't believe he is the messiah.

Secondly the more we know about Judaism the better educated we are on the roots of our own faith including why we, as Catholics, do what we do.

Third, Passover is not meaningless if you knew what it was and what it represents and its connection to lent and the Eucharist.



Peace.

scotju said...

Kat, you don't know what you're talking about.
Jews are anti-christ. IJno. 2:23-24 makes it quite clear that anyone who rejects Jesus as the messiah (Christ) is anti-christ. It also says if you don't believe in the Son, you don't have the Father. So Jews are, according to this, Godless. IIJno.7 says if one doesn't believe Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, the same is an anti-christ. Christ was, is, and forever more will be, God in the flesh. Jno.1:1-18, v. 1,2, and 14 says Jesus is God. As for malevolence against Christ Jesus by Jews, I suggest that you read John's Gospel, especially chapter 8, and the book of Acts. Their's plenty of Jewish anti-christian malevolence there. Also, read "Reckless Rites" by Elliot Horowitz. It documents plenty of Jewish malevolence towand Christians.
Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament. It is merely the traditions of the elders whom Jesus roundly condemned in several Gospel passages, such as Matthew 15and 23. Our religion is not rooted in their corrupt religion. Our religion is rooted in the true teachings of the real law of Moses and the prophets as taught and amplified by Jesus and his apostles. Nothing can be learned from the ones our Lord called blind guides.
The passover, as practised by the Jews, (and misguided Catholics) is meaningless today. It's purpose was to celebrate the deliverance of Israel from Egyptian bondage and to point to the coming of Jesus Christ, who would be the true Paschal lamb slain for the sins of the world. Since they reject Christ, their Passover is meaningless. Only believing Christians have the true Passover feast.

Kat said...

scotju;

In saying that Jews are Godless you are calling God a liar.

We, Catholic's and many Christians, believe that Jesus came to fulfill the law not to abolish it. God made a covenant with his people (the Jews)and gave them the Mitzvot, aka the Law. Christians commonly refer to these as the 10 commandments however there are technically 613 commandments but I digress.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, and if you believe that Jesus is God incarnate and "true God and true man " Then you are calling Jesus a liar as well. God does not go back on his promises, Through the incarnation God sought to envelop all of mankind in salvation he did not brake his promise to the Jews. Could and did Jews accept Jesus as the messiah? yes, (as we believe)because he was fulfilling the law.

To say that Jews are Godless is to call God a liar and therefore Jesus a liar and all of Christianity and mono-theism as false and to put yourself above Popes and the church.

Do some Jews hate Christianity, yes, but considering what Christians have done to Jews over the past 2,000 years I am not surprised. Do Christians hate Jews, yes, mostly out of ignorance. To hate the Jews or in anyway despise them you despise Jesus, to despise the passover Seder, you despise the Last Supper which gave us the Eucharist, you despise the Mass, because I hate to tell you, the Mass is modeled after 2 things, the Passover Seder and the Jewish Wedding ceremony, the baldachin at St. Peter's over the main alter, is a chuppah. Judaism is all over and within Christianity to reject that is deliberately accepting ignorance.

Even the prayers over the bread and wine are almost word for word the words said at consecration:

Transliteration: Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha‑olam, bo're p'ri hagafen.

Translation: "Blessed are You, Lord, our God, King of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine."

Sound familiar?

Scotju, the only thing you are really doing is spreading hate and mis-information.

scotju said...

Kat, your reply is typical of someone who has been Judaized. I used to belong to a Judaizing sect, so I know what I'm talking about. I'm also a descendant of a Marrano family, and I've done many hours of research on Jewish history to understand my family's backgroud. 90% of the sources I've used are articles and books written by Jewish authors, so I learned most of the good and bad stuff about Jews and Judaism from those sources. So, if I'm "spreading misinformation and lies", 90% of those "lies and misinformations" come from Jewish sources!
I see you didn't deal with the verses I quoted from John's Gospel and Epistle's. IJno.2:23 must have upset you a lot. It says, if you deny the son, you don't have the Father. So, you are Godless if you deny any member of the Trinity.
Your 5th paragraph is a typical rant that I expect from someone who has swallowed Judaizing hook, line and sinker. 'the Christians treated the Jews so mean, you despise Jews, you despise the Passover Seder, you despise the Last supper, it's based on the Passover seder ad nausem. There's no way the Eucharist is based on the Passover Seder. The Passover Seder used by the Jews didn't come into being until way after the 1st century. And the Christians would have raised hell about any Jewish influence on the Mass. And your pathetic attempt to shame me with that prayer will go nowhere. Sure I know that prayer is Jewish, but it has no place in the mass. It was never in the traditional mass, and it certainly doesn't need to be there now. And your claim about the baldachin being a chuppah is balderdash. Any source will tell you baldachins were canopies erected over important people in the state or church. And you claim I'm peddling misinformation!?

Kat said...

Scotju;

None of what I said earlier was in any way a "rant".

I was under the impression that you were Catholic, I apologize, I take from other things you have said, again only guessing, that you are some either some form of evangelical Christian or a muslim, well I take that back you couldn't be muslim because you seem to believe in the incarnation.

I am a formal student of theology and an informal student of history, so I do know what I am talking about.

To boil it down, Jesus was an observant Jew, so was his mother. Christianity stems directly from the Jewish faith, God is not a liar and does not abandon his promises, to say the Jews are Godless calls God a liar and if God is a Liar then Jesus couldn't be the messiah, which is something I can't and won't believe.

I hope you prayerfully think about somethings and let go of whatever emotional issue it is that has you so riled up with hatred of the Jewish people.

Peace;

Kat
a loyal daughter of the church

scotju said...

Kat, it's obvisous you don't want understand what history and the Scriptures say about Jews and Judaism. So I'm going to discontinue this waste of combox space and move on. I do hope you will wake up from your heretical foolishness before you rin yor life.

Kat said...

Scotju;

LOL.

Not the first time in my life I've been called a heritic, nor the first time someone has tried to bully me online.

I will pray for you that you come out of the hate that fills your heart this Lent and let your anti-semitism pass away.

Peace

Hans Georg Lundahl said...

// Audio Sancto Is Closed
The audio archive of Audio Sancto has been divested to the following websites: //

Is the talk on Regina Prophetarum?